Contemporary Ukrainian feminism is not about Western grants, but about Lesia Ukrainka's legacy - gender expert Zlobina

The journalist of Espreso.West talked to Tamara Zlobina, PhD in philosophy and head of the Gender in Details expert resource, about modern feminism, new challenges and trends.

Tamara Zlobina

“The main tasks of Ukrainian feminism today are to eradicate sexism, gender stereotypes, and various forms of discrimination”

Have the emphases and narratives in feminism changed over the past 10 years? What is the main trend in women's struggle in the 21st century?

The answer to this question depends on the geographical context we are talking about.

In general, there are both achievements and unresolved problems in the world. From the perspective of an Eastern European country, it may seem that everything is already good - women have equal rights. However, feminists in South America are raising the issue of femicide, the mass murder of women (often by their partners), in Africa and Asia they are fighting against female circumcision (damage or removal of the external genitals), and in Afghanistan the Taliban recently banned education for women. In general, in many Arab countries, women's rights are restricted at the legislative and customary level.

What is especially unfortunate is that there are losses of achievements. In the United States, which seems to us to be a country where feminism seems to have won, about 2 million people took part in the Women's March the day after Donald Trump's inauguration. It was a protest against his discriminatory and sexist remarks.

And these protests were not unfounded - the judges whom Donald Trump appointed to the US Supreme Court voted in favor of changes to the law that allow individual states to ban abortion. And several states did ban them in 2022, long after Trump had left office. This shows that conservative populism is very destructive and can have lasting negative consequences.

In Ukraine, we are now returning, in fact, to the issues raised by Ukrainian feminists in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. People are trying to convince us that feminism did not exist in Ukraine, that it is being imposed on our society with the help of "Western grants" - this is not true. Contemporary feminists continue the work of Natalia Kobrynska and Lesia Ukrainka, as well as Milena Rudnytska and the Union of Ukrainian Women, a mass feminist women's organization in western Ukraine in the 1920s and 1930s.

The main tasks of Ukrainian feminism today are to eradicate sexism, gender stereotypes, and various forms of discrimination (from gender-based prejudice to violence).

What stereotypes still prevail in Ukrainian society?

The very perception of the feminist movement is quite stereotypical. Some people think that modern feminism is a whim. However, if you take a closer look around, problems immediately become apparent. One can analyze the content of the subject of "labor education" at school, and the outdated gender stereotypes that our education still reproduces become obvious.

Or the recent attempts of some conservative MPs to cancel March 8 - they didn't even know that this holiday is called the International Day for Women's Rights and International Peace, and that feminists have been rallying on this day across the country for more than 10 years. For some, it is still a "day of spring and beauty."

However, the situation is changing. Women are taking a very active part in the social and political life of the country, and it is no longer possible to speak of them only as beauties and keepers, and of men only as "earners." Role models for both sexes are becoming more balanced, covering fulfillment in both private and professional life.

Law enforcement agencies, the army, and the security forces have a large share of women, and this also affects the change in the perception of the role of women and their possible self-realization.

“At the core, even the most ardent conservatives want happiness and security for their daughters, mothers, sisters, and wives, and this is impossible without gender equality”

Which of the existing problems in Ukrainian society, in the context of gender equality, should be solved as a matter of priority?

Ukrainian legislation needs to be amended in accordance with the Istanbul Convention, which aims to eliminate all forms of violence against women.

Sex education and sexuality education should be introduced in kindergartens and schools, with topics appropriate to the age of children, so that they understand what safety, mutual respect, and a culture of consent are.

There is a need for greater involvement of men in the household and raising children, improvement of public infrastructure for children, as well as all those who need care (sick, elderly), because usually women are the ones who take care of them.

There are problems for women in the army, ranging from the lack of female uniforms to stereotypical attitudes, when women have to prove that they are primarily fighters and defend themselves against skepticism and harassment.

In general, the list of gender issues in Ukraine is huge, and we regularly write about various aspects on social media and on the website of the expert resource on gender equality Gender in Details.

In your opinion, to what extent is our modern society hostile to the ideas of feminism?

At the level of words, it can be quite hostile, because there is an imposed association that feminism is something alien and bad. Some churches conduct anti-gender propaganda.

But at the core, even the most ardent conservatives want happiness and security for their daughters, mothers, sisters, and wives, and this is impossible without gender equality and social change.

I'll draw a parallel with a dark and cluttered street where robberies regularly occur. You can, of course, teach shooting, self-defense, and walking in groups, or you can clean up the slums, provide good lighting, and install surveillance cameras. And then there will be no need to defend ourselves - the robberies will stop.

Feminism wants to create a society in which it is safe because people's rights are not violated, because we all watch out for this. We all, women and men, are interested in this.

The patriarchy played a bad joke on men when they had to play the role of the "stronger sex" to the fullest when martial law was introduced. At the same time, feminists are again accused of not calling the ban on traveling abroad gender discrimination. What is wrong with this situation?

In the discussion of why feminists do not call the ban on men traveling abroad gender discrimination and do not fight it, we must first determine what kind of society we live in.

If we live in an equal society (A), where we have 50/50 gender representation in parliament, in leadership positions, women hold 50% of leadership positions and personnel in the military, and in private life men take on half of maternity leave and childcare, are actively involved in domestic work, elderly care, etc., then in such a society, a ban on men traveling abroad would indeed be gender discrimination.

But we live in a different, still conservative and patriarchal society (B), where women were considered primarily "keepers of the home" and men were considered "earners" and protectors. Representatives of both sexes received status and treatment according to these gender stereotypes, men had greater access to resources, power, and were more encouraged to lead - we see the results of this in the lack of gender parity in government and business management. Therefore, the requirement for men to fulfill their stereotypical role of a protector in such a society is a payment for the privileges that men had in peacetime.

And women in the army are still sanctioned for breaking the gender stereotype and defending their country - they are treated differently, even condemned.

Feminists are the ones who have been fighting this state of affairs for decades and trying to encourage society to move from a conservative state B to an equal state A.

“Internalized misogyny is a consequence of the patriarchy itself, a consequence of sexualization and the existence of stereotypes about behavior and appearance”

Nowadays, stand-up is actively developing in Ukraine. And sometimes comedians allow themselves very sexist things, justifying it with humor. Do such things as jokes like "beating means love" or "a woman's place is in the kitchen" have a right to exist?

No, this should cease to exist even at the level of jokes, even at home in the kitchen, not to mention in public shows. Such jokes are an affirmation of stereotypes and promotion of the idea that it is possible to do so in principle. You can despise and beat, you can sexualize, you can rape. The idea of this should cease to exist in space in any form, and individual manifestations should be sharply condemned.

Where are the adequate limits of sexualization of women/men?

Where there is a line between sexualization and vulgarization, as well as sexualization and deprivation of agency. 

It is important to ask: what is the purpose of sexualizing a certain image/product? Is it really a necessary tool? Doesn't it place inappropriate emphasis? Doesn't it feed existing stereotypes? Is a woman/man sexualized as a angent, an actor, or vice versa, as an object to satisfy someone's desires? And if we use the "mirror trick" and sexualize the male image, what will such a product look like?

Usually, the "mirror trick" is a good way to highlight bad decisions: if a man looks stupid in this situation, it means that this cannot be applied to women either.

Internalized misogyny. Why does it exist and how big a problem is it?

Internalized misogyny is a consequence of the patriarchy itself, a consequence of sexualization and the existence of stereotypes about behavior and appearance. 

A certain model of behavior is imposed on a child even before he or she is born - a blue or pink envelope for discharge from the hospital, a car or doll as a toy, permission to be naughty or a total ban on it, a drill in the hands or cross-stitch. 

Then there are requirements for appearance, the amount of hair on the body and the color of lipstick on the lips. There are too many requirements, so there can be contempt for oneself and others because of the inability to meet them.

At the same time, women notice that men are treated differently: they are given more space, listened to with more attention, and no jokes about "blondes" are told about men. 

Therefore, there is a subconscious perception that being a man is easier, more profitable, and more prestigious, that broadcasting patriarchal thoughts (usually disparaging to women) is a socially accepted norm.

And to protect themselves from this traumatic realization, women often form defensive reactions: "I'm not like other girls", "other women are stupid, and I'm smart", "I'm one of the guys, not like other girls.” This encourages misogyny and contempt for other women.

But this is only an illusion of defense, because most often internalized misogyny is accompanied by total disdain for oneself and humiliation of one's role, the inability to leave the offender or change anything, which is very harmful to the woman herself.

The realization that gender discrimination exists in our society, that women can fight it and defend their rights to a safe, quality life, to opportunities and dignity unlimited by stereotypes, works much better.